Comments on: Is Roman Catholic priests’ abuse of children proof of the sin of imposing celibacy on priests, or is something? http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something Never Again! Stop Clergy Sexual Abuse Mon, 19 Jul 2010 06:20:59 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: LineDancer http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something/comment-page-1#comment-4658 LineDancer Sat, 05 Dec 2009 17:42:59 +0000 http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something#comment-4658 It's hard to say since most Catholic priests don't go around raping children. Still, imposed celibacy is an unbiblical rule.<br><b>References : </b><br> It’s hard to say since most Catholic priests don’t go around raping children. Still, imposed celibacy is an unbiblical rule.
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]]> By: John http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something/comment-page-1#comment-4657 John Sat, 05 Dec 2009 17:09:59 +0000 http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something#comment-4657 I believe the biggest sins committed are by the bishops/cardinals that lied, covered up and obstructed justice in harboring serious sexual predators. They are the runs driving the gettaway car from these crimes. I don't care if protestant or doctors are molesting children. Catholic priests stand up in the pulpit every week at mass pointing fingers at their congregrations telling them they better not sin and lead a good life, while thousands of so called good priests are staring at some 14 year old boy during mass hoping he can be their next bed partner. Hipocracy. Little remorse is offered to the victims by catholic laity. Shame on them. Its time for catholics to determine whether they want to still belong to this organization that might be regretful for what is happenening but show little remorse and only because they got caught. I left the catholic church 20 years ago and I am a better person for it.<br><b>References : </b><br> I believe the biggest sins committed are by the bishops/cardinals that lied, covered up and obstructed justice in harboring serious sexual predators. They are the runs driving the gettaway car from these crimes. I don’t care if protestant or doctors are molesting children. Catholic priests stand up in the pulpit every week at mass pointing fingers at their congregrations telling them they better not sin and lead a good life, while thousands of so called good priests are staring at some 14 year old boy during mass hoping he can be their next bed partner. Hipocracy.

Little remorse is offered to the victims by catholic laity. Shame on them.

Its time for catholics to determine whether they want to still belong to this organization that might be regretful for what is happenening but show little remorse and only because they got caught. I left the catholic church 20 years ago and I am a better person for it.
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]]> By: Elmbeard http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something/comment-page-1#comment-4656 Elmbeard Sat, 05 Dec 2009 16:53:59 +0000 http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something#comment-4656 I want to answer this question, since it has provoked a number of very good answers. I must add that I have precious little confidence left in the machinations of Civil Law, which seems to be long divorced from justice, and quite happy to start a witch-hunt on innocent folk for their "crime" of being in the same group as a known criminal. Habeas Corpus and the Right to be Innocent until proven guilty has already been breached in England, as anyone who has had to submit to an Enhanced CRB check will know. I must also say that I can compare a civil divorce conducted by the County Court and an annulment conducted by a Catholic Tribunal, since I have undergone both. The civil proceedings cost thousands of pounds, and led to an unresolved situation where there is ongoing and permanent enmity. I have not seen my own son and daughter now for nine years. And we got a ritual where a judge pronounces the termination of fifty marriages without one mentioning their names or claiming responsibility for the wreckage left behind. The annulment cost hundreds. It explored in greatest detail every relevant part of the marriage, where it is succeeded and where it failed. It endeavoured if at all possible to preserve the marriage. In failing to do so, it gracefully accepted the incapacity of me and/or my wife to undertake marriage at the time, and laid a condition that next time, proper preparation in the light of the previous failure be undertaken before any future marriage be sanctified. If the Church courts were doing their job, there would be no need or cause to involve the police. At Confession, part of the penance should be removal to a closed order until those demons and sins had been properly purged, not simply passing the parcel. It was a dereliction of duty in Ireland (and the USA) and now the whole Church is having to suffer for it. As for the vow of priesthood celibacy, previous answerers have put it better than I could. I don't think it should be compulsory, but it should be highly recommended. If anyone's sexual urges are so strong that to resist them is torture, then it is better to be married and in a fulfilling sexual relationship with a consenting adult than it is to be tortured.<br><b>References : </b><br> I want to answer this question, since it has provoked a number of very good answers.

I must add that I have precious little confidence left in the machinations of Civil Law, which seems to be long divorced from justice, and quite happy to start a witch-hunt on innocent folk for their "crime" of being in the same group as a known criminal. Habeas Corpus and the Right to be Innocent until proven guilty has already been breached in England, as anyone who has had to submit to an Enhanced CRB check will know.

I must also say that I can compare a civil divorce conducted by the County Court and an annulment conducted by a Catholic Tribunal, since I have undergone both.

The civil proceedings cost thousands of pounds, and led to an unresolved situation where there is ongoing and permanent enmity. I have not seen my own son and daughter now for nine years. And we got a ritual where a judge pronounces the termination of fifty marriages without one mentioning their names or claiming responsibility for the wreckage left behind.

The annulment cost hundreds. It explored in greatest detail every relevant part of the marriage, where it is succeeded and where it failed. It endeavoured if at all possible to preserve the marriage. In failing to do so, it gracefully accepted the incapacity of me and/or my wife to undertake marriage at the time, and laid a condition that next time, proper preparation in the light of the previous failure be undertaken before any future marriage be sanctified.

If the Church courts were doing their job, there would be no need or cause to involve the police. At Confession, part of the penance should be removal to a closed order until those demons and sins had been properly purged, not simply passing the parcel. It was a dereliction of duty in Ireland (and the USA) and now the whole Church is having to suffer for it.

As for the vow of priesthood celibacy, previous answerers have put it better than I could. I don’t think it should be compulsory, but it should be highly recommended. If anyone’s sexual urges are so strong that to resist them is torture, then it is better to be married and in a fulfilling sexual relationship with a consenting adult than it is to be tortured.
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]]> By: daisy http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something/comment-page-1#comment-4655 daisy Sat, 05 Dec 2009 16:14:59 +0000 http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something#comment-4655 The bottom line is that yes unfortunately in all religions, or churches you will get people that do the wrong thing, we can all agree to that, BUT its what THAT religion does about it, that counts !! If the religion/church turns a blind eye or covers it up, like you have pointed out, then that church/religion has serious problems, and its members should not be defending it, but should be taking a long hard critical look at their religion. At the end of the day any religion/church that is in fact guilty of hiding such atrocities should NOT claim to be the 'Mother' church , as what they are doing is totally against what GOD requires, and is in fact a mockery to who and what God is and stands for!!. Its quite scary that many put their church/religion on such a pedestal, that they themselves will justify the atrocities, by pointing out the faults of other religions, and totally loosing sight of what God word states, as in just one example in the scriptures is ''We must HATE what is BAD, and LOVE what is GOOD. Gods standards are high, and He does not tolerate lies and deceit of any kind, and HE would certainly not claim such religions as His, in fact its those religions that are guilty of misleading millions and turning people away from the ONLY TRUE GOD, to think that they still claim to be the' Mother 'church, defies belief. This begs the question,,,,Do members of such churchs/religions, put their religion above God? Unfortunately we can see quite clearly the answer, judging by some that have answered here !! Only the religion who meets Gods exacting standards can be called the TRUE religion, and God is the judge of that.!<br><b>References : </b><br>J/W The bottom line is that yes unfortunately in all religions, or churches you will get people that do the wrong thing, we can all agree to that, BUT its what THAT religion does about it, that counts !! If the religion/church turns a blind eye or covers it up, like you have pointed out, then that church/religion has serious problems, and its members should not be defending it, but should be taking a long hard critical look at their religion. At the end of the day any religion/church that is in fact guilty of hiding such atrocities should NOT claim to be the ‘Mother’ church , as what they are doing is totally against what GOD requires, and is in fact a mockery to who and what God is and stands for!!. Its quite scary that many put their church/religion on such a pedestal, that they themselves will justify the atrocities, by pointing out the faults of other religions, and totally loosing sight of what God word states, as in just one example in the scriptures is ”We must HATE what is BAD, and LOVE what is GOOD. Gods standards are high, and He does not tolerate lies and deceit of any kind, and HE would certainly not claim such religions as His, in fact its those religions that are guilty of misleading millions and turning people away from the ONLY TRUE GOD, to think that they still claim to be the’ Mother ‘church, defies belief. This begs the question,,,,Do members of such churchs/religions, put their religion above God? Unfortunately we can see quite clearly the answer, judging by some that have answered here !! Only the religion who meets Gods exacting standards can be called the TRUE religion, and God is the judge of that.!
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J/W

]]> By: LH Catholic by Choice http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something/comment-page-1#comment-4654 LH Catholic by Choice Sat, 05 Dec 2009 15:38:59 +0000 http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something#comment-4654 Such misbehavior by Priest and nuns is only another testing of our faith. They because of their position will have the heavier burden to bear for there sins and for causing many to lose their faith. The hardest part is how it has because the acts of a very small minority given the anti Catholics and secular press only more ammunition to attack Christ Bride his Church. And even more sorry is how such hard working devoted to Christ the Priest and Nuns who are labeled as bad by association.We have suffered other scandals in our 2,000 yr History and not only survived but came out it stronger and we will be that way once again. Evidence is in America that not only are there more young men seeking the PriestHood and are a much more conservative traditional Catholic compared to there predecessors. And praise Christ our King there seems to be a ever increasing interest of young men searching out the PriestHood not a slowing down.<br><b>References : </b><br> Such misbehavior by Priest and nuns is only another testing of our faith. They because of their position will have the heavier burden to bear for there sins and for causing many to lose their faith. The hardest part is how it has because the acts of a very small minority given the anti Catholics and secular press only more ammunition to attack Christ Bride his Church. And even more sorry is how such hard working devoted to Christ the Priest and Nuns who are labeled as bad by association.We have suffered other scandals in our 2,000 yr History and not only survived but came out it stronger and we will be that way once again. Evidence is in America that not only are there more young men seeking the PriestHood and are a much more conservative traditional Catholic compared to there predecessors. And praise Christ our King there seems to be a ever increasing interest of young men searching out the PriestHood not a slowing down.
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]]> By: Slick http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something/comment-page-1#comment-4653 Slick Sat, 05 Dec 2009 15:06:59 +0000 http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something#comment-4653 1 Cor. 7:8-9 "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn." Unrepentant molesters have a terrible destiny and should be trembling. But if a priest can contain himself, living righteously, then his choice to remain celibate is not a sin. It wasn't for Paul. Those that covered up the molestations have to answer to God, having generally failed to remove the offenders from further contact with people assuming they can trust them. The RCC leadership at large that knew of the sins is as guilty of molestation as those they enabled by not dealing with it. No repentance, no forgiveness.<br><b>References : </b><br> 1 Cor. 7:8-9 "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."

Unrepentant molesters have a terrible destiny and should be trembling. But if a priest can contain himself, living righteously, then his choice to remain celibate is not a sin. It wasn’t for Paul.

Those that covered up the molestations have to answer to God, having generally failed to remove the offenders from further contact with people assuming they can trust them. The RCC leadership at large that knew of the sins is as guilty of molestation as those they enabled by not dealing with it. No repentance, no forgiveness.
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]]> By: Jim ((C.A.B.)) http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something/comment-page-1#comment-4652 Jim ((C.A.B.)) Sat, 05 Dec 2009 14:19:59 +0000 http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something#comment-4652 The vow of celibacy is not a dogma of the Catholic Church - meaning that it is not an official teaching from the Magisterium, and can be changed. Nor is it universally recognized throughout all the 23 Rites. Many of the Eastern Catholic Rites allow their clergy to marry. Even in the Latin Rite, there are a very few married priests (although Latin Rite clergy must have special and explicit permission from the Vatican before they can go into the priesthood. Such cases are not very common). Also, the Vow of Celibacy was not enacted ("enacted" - for lack of a better term) until after some several hundred years of the Church's history. Some of the earliest Church Fathers indeed were married clergymen. Even today, a few members of the clergy are married men (as explained above... in the Eastern Rites). However, I am NOT saying that I think the vow of celibacy should be halted. I encourage it, as it displays the utmost humility of priests as they devote their lives to the Lord Jesus Christ. No one is forbidding the ordained clergy to marry. Seminarians are fully aware of the vocation they are taking on as they are in the process of becoming priests. Upon their OWN WILL, they take a vow to remain celibate the rest of their lives, as they are dedicating themselves to the Church. In my eyes, this is one of the most humbling acts of dedication to the Lord I've ever seen. It shows how truly devoted Catholic priests are to serving God and following His Plan. People don't "need" sex. It's purely a psychological standpoint that some feel they "must" possess in order to justify their disgusting behavior. Sex is NOT a civil right. It's a privilege. Aren't you aware that that less than 1% of all ordained priests have committed an act of sex abuse? That is not many at all (although still far too much); and is much lower than the rate of sex abuse for protestant ministers - which stands at a lofty 6%. Besides, the priests who have committed acts of sex abuse are NOT Catholics - they are not Christians, in fact. Don't confuse these pedophiles with legitimate ministers. These people are criminals, sent by satan. They never had any intent to bring good to the Catholic Church even from the beginning. Rather, they merely took on seminary because of their premeditated plan to bring the gates of hell towards Christ's Church.<br><b>References : </b><br>Catholic Christian The vow of celibacy is not a dogma of the Catholic Church – meaning that it is not an official teaching from the Magisterium, and can be changed. Nor is it universally recognized throughout all the 23 Rites. Many of the Eastern Catholic Rites allow their clergy to marry. Even in the Latin Rite, there are a very few married priests (although Latin Rite clergy must have special and explicit permission from the Vatican before they can go into the priesthood. Such cases are not very common).

Also, the Vow of Celibacy was not enacted ("enacted" – for lack of a better term) until after some several hundred years of the Church’s history. Some of the earliest Church Fathers indeed were married clergymen. Even today, a few members of the clergy are married men (as explained above… in the Eastern Rites).

However, I am NOT saying that I think the vow of celibacy should be halted. I encourage it, as it displays the utmost humility of priests as they devote their lives to the Lord Jesus Christ.

No one is forbidding the ordained clergy to marry. Seminarians are fully aware of the vocation they are taking on as they are in the process of becoming priests. Upon their OWN WILL, they take a vow to remain celibate the rest of their lives, as they are dedicating themselves to the Church. In my eyes, this is one of the most humbling acts of dedication to the Lord I’ve ever seen. It shows how truly devoted Catholic priests are to serving God and following His Plan.

People don’t "need" sex. It’s purely a psychological standpoint that some feel they "must" possess in order to justify their disgusting behavior. Sex is NOT a civil right. It’s a privilege.

Aren’t you aware that that less than 1% of all ordained priests have committed an act of sex abuse? That is not many at all (although still far too much); and is much lower than the rate of sex abuse for protestant ministers – which stands at a lofty 6%.

Besides, the priests who have committed acts of sex abuse are NOT Catholics – they are not Christians, in fact. Don’t confuse these pedophiles with legitimate ministers. These people are criminals, sent by satan. They never had any intent to bring good to the Catholic Church even from the beginning. Rather, they merely took on seminary because of their premeditated plan to bring the gates of hell towards Christ’s Church.
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Catholic Christian

]]> By: cristoiglesia http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something/comment-page-1#comment-4651 cristoiglesia Sat, 05 Dec 2009 13:43:59 +0000 http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something#comment-4651 Celibacy is NOT a sin. Are you aware that both St. Paul and Jesus recommended celibacy for clergy? Are you aware that the great majority of paedophiles are married men and often family members? Are you aware that the Catholic clergy have, by a great margin, the lowest incidence of paedophilia of any clergy? Are you aware that these incidences happened decades ago? Are you aware that celibacy is a personal discipline of priests that they choose and it is NOT compulsory that any Catholic be celibate? Are you aware that the Church recognises that all of our members are sinful and that some may even be wicked and evil? Are you aware that an incidence of only 1/2 of 1% being abusers is a very low incidence of paedophilia and is, in fact, the lowest incidence of this perversion of any male group? Are you aware that the Church has been cooperative in prosecuting these cases but that almost all of the perpetrators are dead and unable to be punished or to defend themselves against the charges. I pray these questions will help your perspective from being so prejudiced. God bless! In Christ Fr. Joseph<br><b>References : </b><br> Celibacy is NOT a sin. Are you aware that both St. Paul and Jesus recommended celibacy for clergy? Are you aware that the great majority of paedophiles are married men and often family members? Are you aware that the Catholic clergy have, by a great margin, the lowest incidence of paedophilia of any clergy? Are you aware that these incidences happened decades ago? Are you aware that celibacy is a personal discipline of priests that they choose and it is NOT compulsory that any Catholic be celibate? Are you aware that the Church recognises that all of our members are sinful and that some may even be wicked and evil? Are you aware that an incidence of only 1/2 of 1% being abusers is a very low incidence of paedophilia and is, in fact, the lowest incidence of this perversion of any male group? Are you aware that the Church has been cooperative in prosecuting these cases but that almost all of the perpetrators are dead and unable to be punished or to defend themselves against the charges. I pray these questions will help your perspective from being so prejudiced. God bless!

In Christ
Fr. Joseph
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]]> By: Deirdre H http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something/comment-page-1#comment-4650 Deirdre H Sat, 05 Dec 2009 13:34:59 +0000 http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something#comment-4650 First, remember that celibacy is only for those Catholic priests of the Pauline traditions, not ALL Catholic priests are required to be celibate. (Before you jump on this, kindly check out the Maronite rite of the Roman Catholic Church. Find more information here: http://www.maronitesynod.com/index-new-eng.htm) But to better answer the question, Celibacy is good for some, not for others. Paul himself said that Celibacy is not for all. If you can't remain celibate, you shouldn't be a priest in that tradition. To say that the requirement is immoral is to twist the situation to fit the problem, rather than to address the real problem first. The real problem is that some can't remain celibate, some people are pedophiles, some people are many things. You need to keep the people who can't do the job properly from entering that ministry, rather than to change the ministry to fit a larger group of people. It's like the Navy ... you don't build larger submarines to accommodate people who are afraid of confined spaces ... you just pick people who can handle the situation.<br><b>References : </b><br> First, remember that celibacy is only for those Catholic priests of the Pauline traditions, not ALL Catholic priests are required to be celibate. (Before you jump on this, kindly check out the Maronite rite of the Roman Catholic Church. Find more information here: http://www.maronitesynod.com/index-new-eng.htm)

But to better answer the question, Celibacy is good for some, not for others. Paul himself said that Celibacy is not for all. If you can’t remain celibate, you shouldn’t be a priest in that tradition. To say that the requirement is immoral is to twist the situation to fit the problem, rather than to address the real problem first. The real problem is that some can’t remain celibate, some people are pedophiles, some people are many things. You need to keep the people who can’t do the job properly from entering that ministry, rather than to change the ministry to fit a larger group of people.

It’s like the Navy … you don’t build larger submarines to accommodate people who are afraid of confined spaces … you just pick people who can handle the situation.
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]]> By: eagledreams http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something/comment-page-1#comment-4649 eagledreams Sat, 05 Dec 2009 13:04:59 +0000 http://www.churchabuselawblog.com/priest-abuse/is-roman-catholic-priests-abuse-of-children-proof-of-the-sin-of-imposing-celibacy-on-priests-or-is-something#comment-4649 Celibacy is an un natural state so what goes on in the mind of a person who has celibacy forced on them I do not know or claim to understand. Celibacy has more to do with relationships between man and woman and many priests have covert affairs spanning years with a woman in the parish. If this is consenting adult sex then I do not judge them. But then there are all the child abuse cases and whether that is a twist in the mind caused by celibacy or something that was there anyway I do not know. The thing I find most offencive about all of this is the churches ability to pretend there was not a problem needing dealt with. To collude to shield such members of the clergy was evil in itself. It is this evil that is unforgivable no matter who apologises and how often because childhoods were destroyed. Members of the clergy I have spoken to about this become quickly defencive and in fact do not want to hear any of it. Rome at the highest level was involved and yet hid behind God in a pretence that all was well. Meanwhile the perpetrators were at liberty to offend again and again. Psychopathic behaviours. The law was not enforced and so many got away with it....yes just that got away scot free and hid behind their God. The God I know would not have sanctioned this. Today there are still issues with all of this. You see the concept of safe the vocation is foremost.....yes even today.<br><b>References : </b><br> Celibacy is an un natural state so what goes on in the mind of a person who has celibacy forced on them I do not know or claim to understand. Celibacy has more to do with relationships between man and woman and many priests have covert affairs spanning years with a woman in the parish. If this is consenting adult sex then I do not judge them. But then there are all the child abuse cases and whether that is a twist in the mind caused by celibacy or something that was there anyway I do not know.

The thing I find most offencive about all of this is the churches ability to pretend there was not a problem needing dealt with. To collude to shield such members of the clergy was evil in itself. It is this evil that is unforgivable no matter who apologises and how often because childhoods were destroyed.

Members of the clergy I have spoken to about this become quickly defencive and in fact do not want to hear any of it. Rome at the highest level was involved and yet hid behind God in a pretence that all was well. Meanwhile the perpetrators were at liberty to offend again and again. Psychopathic behaviours. The law was not enforced and so many got away with it….yes just that got away scot free and hid behind their God. The God I know would not have sanctioned this.

Today there are still issues with all of this. You see the concept of safe the vocation is foremost…..yes even today.
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